Interview with the ‘PhotoBizX’ Podcast
I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Andrew Hellmich for an episode of the PhotoBizX podcast, and I absolutely loved our chat. We dove deep into how I built my commercial business, the realities of moving away from domestic portraits, and why the set always needs to be a creative democracy.
Here is a quick look at what we talked about:
From Portraits to Big Commissions
I started out shooting absolutely everything—birthdays, weddings, and headshots for my friends. But after photographing a few dancers, the companies themselves started reaching out, which eventually led to working on major advertising campaigns. I love focusing on individuals and organizations who have sacrificed a lot to achieve extraordinary results.
The Art of Pricing and "Wincing"
Moving into the commercial space meant learning how to navigate budgets, day rates, and usage licensing. It took me a while to find that sweet spot, but someone once told me that your prices should make people wince. I've realized you've nailed the quote by the length of that sharp intake of breath before they finally say, "...okay."
Letting the Client Make the Cuts
When a client tells me my quote is over their budget, my response is simple: "Great, what would you like to cut?" Instead of lowering my value, I let them decide if they want to lose the makeup artist, drop a location, or switch to a half-day. It keeps things completely transparent, puts the onus on them, and avoids any messy surprises down the line.
You can listen to the full episode and check out the show notes on the PhotoBizX Podcast Page.
You can listen below, or scroll down for the full transcript.
Full Transcript
Andrew Hellmich: This is PhotoBizX episode number 660. Today, a commercial photographer who started out as a portrait photographer and is now photographing some of the most fascinating people in the world. In this interview, he shares exactly how he built his business, how he negotiates pricing, terms, deliverables, licensing, and just as importantly, how he's bringing in and attracting the clients that he is. If commercial photography is something you've thought about, this episode will be perfect for you. Our special guest is Drew Forsyth, and that interview is coming up in just a minute.
Hey, it's Andrew Hellmich here, host of the PhotoBizX podcast where I interview guests from around the world to help you build a better photography business even faster than going it alone. I know you're going to love Drew, his stories, his tales, and all the detail that he goes into about building a commercial photography business.
All righty, we are going to jump into this interview with Drew in just a second. Today's guest is based in the North West of England, and he works with some of the most interesting people in the world, including performers from the Royal Ballet, Nobel Prize-winning scientists, and hugely successful industry and world leaders. In the past 15 years, he's gone from shooting individual portrait sessions to working with high-profile commercial and advertising clients in the UK and internationally. He says his focus is on individuals and organizations who've worked incredibly hard with big sacrifices to achieve extraordinary results. His work has appeared on BBC News and been published in major publications around the world. I'm talking about Drew Forsyth, and I am wrapped to have him with us now. Drew, welcome, mate.
Drew Forsyth: Thank you so much for having me. I'm blushing. My goodness. [laughter]
Andrew Hellmich: Has it been as good and as incredible as it sounds in that intro?
Drew Forsyth: Yes, every single day has been unmitigated and unbridled success. There have been no failures along the way. [laughter] I've not had to overcome anything. No, it's been great. The highs have been absolutely incredible, and yeah, it's taken a lot of hard work to get here, but yeah, I'm very fortunate I get to work with some amazing people and yeah, I've learned a lot along the way, let's say.
Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. When you talk about or when I mention setbacks, it doesn't sound like there's been any, but I'm sure like any business there has been. When I say setback to you, what comes first to mind?
Drew Forsyth: I think one of the biggest lessons that it took me quite a long time to learn was you can control what you can control, and you can't control what you can't control. And I think, you know, when I think about setbacks, I think about production issues. I think about times when I booked entire teams for the wrong day, or when I just thought, "Oh, the location will be fine, there's no one ever at that place at that time," and then you show up and you go, "Oh my goodness, they're holding an outdoor festival here." [laughter] There's been a lot of setbacks, and every single time I have to look at it and think, "Okay, whose fault is this?" [laughter] And then the most valuable thing is like understanding, "Okay, if it's my fault, I can do something about that." And this is actually a great opportunity for me to go, "Right, improve my processes, improve the pipeline, improve XYZ." And if it's the other person or it's some other entity's fault, then I can sleep soundly in my bed at night and not worry about it. So yeah, it's production. That's been the main kind of setbacks when I think about it.
Andrew Hellmich: First of all, do you classify yourself as a commercial photographer or a portrait photographer?
Drew Forsyth: When I introduce myself to people, I always say portrait photographer, but I work in the commercial advertising space. So when I think about my own work, that's how I kind of characterize it, because I think commercial—commercial can be many things, I think. It can be food, or jewelry, or cars, or all that stuff, whereas I really do work with people. And I think, yeah, that's what I would say.
Andrew Hellmich: When I hear the word or the term commercial photographer, I kind of think that you're invoicing not an individual but a company for the work. Is that how you operate most of the time?
Drew Forsyth: Most of the time, about 80% of my time, yeah, it's working with organizations.
Andrew Hellmich: So did you start out that way, or did you start photographing portraits and dealing with individuals?
Drew Forsyth: Yes, so I started out doing very, very small assignments and shooting—you know what it's like when anyone starts out, you're shooting absolutely everything. So I was shooting birthday parties and weddings and, you know, headshots. I actually didn't study photography at university or anything like that; I studied performing arts. And so all my friends needed headshots, and they needed their shows photographing, and then you kind of got into it that way. So yeah, it was those small kind of individual jobs. And then, you know, you photograph one or two—you know what it's like, you photograph one or two ballerinas, and then the company gets in touch and says, "Oh, we're doing our show, would you come and photograph that?" And then the next thing you know, you're shooting worldwide campaigns for the world's biggest dance companies, you know?
Andrew Hellmich: But that's what I'm curious about. So is that really—like is that really the transition? Because I imagine—well, I don't know, was there a day, a day, a week, that you said, "Okay, I'm no longer a portrait photographer, or a domestic portrait photographer, I am now a commercial photographer. That's what I do"?
Drew Forsyth: I would say it was a slow—it was a slow fade out of my smaller clients over a period of years. I think there wasn't like one specific time, apart from actually when it came to weddings. So when I first started out, I think a lot of photographers do this and it astounds me when I think about it, I think, god, so many people they start out and they start shooting weddings straight away. But I was very lucky, I shot weddings for about four or five years, I was doing about, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 a year. And then I got the opportunity to shoot a wedding in New York. So I flew to New York, we shot it in Central Park, the bride got ready on the 35th floor of a skyscraper—it was incredible. And then I was on the flight home and I got an inquiry, and I was looking at the inquiry and I just thought, "Well, I've done it." Do you know what I mean? I've completed wedding photography. Like, I don't want to be doing this in 10 years, so why am I doing it now? And so that kind of started this process, subconsciously at the time when I think about it now, but more and more consciously to move away from those kind of assignments working with individuals into, you know, working with organizations. Not least because of the budgets. You know what I mean? It can be—I mean, obviously your listeners are based all around the world so I don't want to speak for them, but in the UK, it can be—it can be hard getting someone to pay over £1,000 for an individual session. Do you know what I mean? So whereas, you know, a dance company or a museum or an art gallery or a TV channel or a production—you know, they wouldn't think twice about paying—
Andrew Hellmich: Tell me about that transition because let's say you're photographing for example, and I imagine this is how it was, you photograph some friends in the dance company and they love their work, and then someone from the company approaches you to photograph a production or whatever it may be. How do you know what to charge? Because you're going to go charging from—we're probably doing a free shoot or, you know, someone covers the cost, to I don't know, is it $10,000 for a shoot? Or £10,000? I don't know.
Drew Forsyth: Sure. So, I mean, in that example, yeah, I mean, gosh, yeah, there's so many versions of that. Like, how do you know what to charge? There's so many answers. I think, you know, one is you can just—I used to just ask them. I just say, "Yes, what's the fee?" [laughter] And then they would say, let's say £500, and I'd, you know, I've been doing these individual sessions for 100 quid. And you're like, "Oh my god, £500, wow, that's crazy money! Yeah, of course, I'd love to." And then, you know, you hire the studio and the makeup artist and the gear, and then you think, "Well, where's all—where's all the money? Where's all my money?" [laughter] So I like—that was the first thing, was just asking them what the fee is. Then like, as I grew more and more confident, you know, I was asking other photographers. Like asking my colleagues and saying, "Okay, I know you shoot this kind of thing, you've maybe shot in a similar kind of thing for a similar organization in the past, what would you charge?" And they go, "Okay, well, I'd normally charge £1,000." And I go, "Okay, great," and then kind of, you know, make sure I'm not—kind of make sure I'm not really undercutting anyone. Do you know what I mean? So then—so that was part of it. So, you know, asking them, and then asking other people, and then slowly over time kind of asking more industry people, like—so like last summer, I still do this, so like last summer I had my portfolio reviewed, and I was by like a London photography agent, and I said to them, "Okay, based on my—what you're seeing here, what should my day rate be?" And they said, "Oh, it should be, you know, this, £2,000 or £5,000," you know, depending on what it is. And actually, the figure that I had in my head was pretty similar to what they were suggesting. So—
Andrew Hellmich: So what did they suggest?
Drew Forsyth: They said it was between £1,500 and £2,500 depending on the scope of the project. Now, that's obviously just for one day, like there is no such thing as a one-day assignment for me, you know? So because it's—obviously you've got your day rate which is, let's say your day rate is 100, let's call it that for math, then your pre-production rate which is let's say 33, and then your post-production rate which might be 66. So that's kind of how I roughly break it down and then obviously I've got assistant, makeup artist, studio hire, you know, gear, all that stuff below the line. But like, yeah, that's kind of roughly.
Andrew Hellmich: Do those extras, do they come out of the 100 that you're charging?
Drew Forsyth: No, no, no, that's—that's extra. That's extra, that's on top.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so these days you're charging for you and your time, that's your—your money, your take-home before tax, and then you have all the extras, so that gets added on to the invoice.
Drew Forsyth: That's right, yeah, and the usage as well. So if they want to use it in the print or they want to use it on the website or social media, or they want it to—they want to run ads in America, they want to, you know, run it in mainland Europe, obviously that all goes into the calculation of the usage. And actually, if you're here in the UK, the AOP, so the Association of Photographers, they have a really good tool on their website that you can use to kind of calculate that stuff.
Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. So does your agent, are they the ones that talk to the client now, or is it still you talking to the clients and coming up with all these numbers?
Drew Forsyth: So yeah, I don't have an agent. I do it all myself, but I met with an agent last summer just to kind of put my experiences and my work in some kind of context, because obviously like it's quite a solitary life, this. Do you know what I mean? Or it can be. Like, I try to make it not be, but it really can be, and it can be hard to know, "Okay," like photographers are quite secretive. This is why this podcast is pretty good, right? Because like, you're lifting the lid and all this stuff. But like, yeah, sometimes people just will not tell you how much they charge or how much they think you should charge or all this kind of thing. So yeah, so I try and have my portfolio reviewed as often as I can by people in the industry that I trust, and sometimes that's paid, sometimes that's not. You know, I had a really amazing phone call with someone at Condé Nast, and that was just someone who gave up their time for free. So, but yeah, that's really valuable. But no, I don't have an agent, and it's me having these—these discussions with the client, and it's me having the discussion about usage and what is usage and how—well, that affects things.
Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. I'm going to ask a little bit more about that in a second. But so far in your life as a commercial photographer, have you put quotes out there and had a client say, "No, that's too expensive"?
Drew Forsyth: Oh my god, are you kidding? Yeah, every day. What are you talking about?
Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay. Right, because well, I thought it might have been the opposite where you go in with a price, let's say £1,000, and they say, "Yep, we're good. That sounds great," and you think, "Dammit, I should have doubled that. What was I thinking?"
Drew Forsyth: Oh my god. [laughter] Yeah, I used to have that—oh my god, I used to have this all the time, which was that I would never be happy. So like, if you quote them and they say yes, you go, "Dammit, I should have charged more." And you quote them and they say no, you go, "Dammit, I charged too much." [laughter] So like, yeah, it took me a while to get to that right figure where, you know, they go, "Mmm, okay." In fact, someone said to me once, "Your prices should make people wince." And I really liked that. And I think like, you know that you've nailed it by the length of that noise that people make where they go, "Errr, okay." And like, the longer that noise is, the more that you've absolutely kind of threaded the needle.
Andrew Hellmich: So are you actually getting yeses and winces with your clients, or is this all—you're sort of just judging that because it's an email exchange? Like, are you actually talking figures face-to-face or on the phone?
Drew Forsyth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do—it's a mix, I would say. It's not every client, a lot of it is email. But yeah, I love—I love doing it in real life, and I love doing it over Zoom. I think some people worry about talking about money and they don't want to talk about it, but I have no hang-ups talking about it because, you know, you just got to get to the bottom of it and hammer it out. They obviously have a figure in mind. They want to hire you because they took the meeting, right?
Andrew Hellmich: Right.
Drew Forsyth: This is just the meeting—the meeting is just the formality. So they like, you know, they want to—so yeah, so it's just—and yeah, and you—I think, especially if you do stuff in real life, you can be a lot more candid. So when they say, "Look, okay, we've only got a thousand—" let's—I keep going back to 1,000 because it's like an easy number to like break down into percentages or whatever. But like, let's say, you know, they say to me, "Well, Drew, you've—you've quoted us £1,300 here, and we've only got £1,000, what do you want to do?" And I say, "Great, what would you like to cut? Like, what do you want to get rid of? Like, obviously we can get rid of the makeup artist, or—" like, you know, I can't shoot X assignment without my assistant, so I don't really want to compromise on that. But if you don't want the makeup artist, okay, obviously that's going to have a knock-on effect because we can't do as many close-ups [laughter] because the makeup might not be as good, because they're just the models doing it themselves, or do you know what I mean? And like, I'm trying to get them to make an informed decision about how they're spending their budget, and you know, so there's not any surprises. Like, and the reason that I do that is because like, you know, like it's things—10 years since like my worst assignment that kind of like completely reset my photography business. And like, for that, the client said, "We've got £600 to spend on dresses for this like group of musicians." And I said, "Yeah, absolutely!" And like, then the stylist went away, it was 14 musicians, so it was like less than £100 a dress, it was like £50 a dress or something. And then the images came back, and the client said, "Well, the dresses look really cheap." And I was like, "Yeah, because it was £50 a dress." And they were like, "Oh, we didn't know that." So like, I like having these discussions in person and—and one thing I think all my clients would say about me is that I can be very blunt.
Andrew Hellmich: Mmm.
Drew Forsyth: Not in a—in a—a bad or aggressive or negative way, but just in like a—and I think I kind of just did it then actually to you, which is like, "Well, okay, what are we cutting?"
Andrew Hellmich: That's great, I love that.
Drew Forsyth: Do you know what I mean? Because like, and then they, you're kind of—the client is then making the decision, not you. And if they're making the decision, then if it goes wrong, it's not on me, it's on—kind of on them. Do you know what I mean? Like if they didn't want to spend the money on the makeup artist, they can't then say to me, "Drew, the makeup doesn't look very good in this."
Andrew Hellmich: Right.
Drew Forsyth: Do you know what I mean?
Andrew Hellmich: I love that. I love how you put the onus back onto them to make a decision to cut something. You're not automatically looking for, "Okay, well, I can cut this, I can cut that." You're letting them do it.
Drew Forsyth: No, I'm letting them do it. And often, you know, often it is a discussion. Do you know what I mean? It's not like a—I'm not like really super direct with them, but I am like, "Okay." Like, the answer—like, I did a course with um, do you know Art Streiber, the photographer in LA?
Andrew Hellmich: No, I don't.
Drew Forsyth: Oh my god, unbelievable work. He's my hero. I did like a workshop with him, and he said this thing which was, I think his uncle—his uncle like worked in corporate for some huge organization and said to him like, "The answer is always yes. Like, now what's the question?" [laughter] So when the client says, "Can you do it for £1,000?" I go, "Yes, and also, [laughter] what are we getting rid of? Like, which location are we going to drop? Or like, who's not coming to the shoot? Or like, are we just going to do a half-day instead of a full day? Or like, are we going to drive down in the morning rather than doing the overnight the night—the night before? And like—"
Andrew Hellmich: So you're looking for a solution to satisfy the client.
Drew Forsyth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, and like, I'm just double-checking that they know that there are consequences to cutting things. It's when they think that they can still get the same level without compromising on—on budget.
Andrew Hellmich: So how do you handle if you're—let's say you're dealing with one of these clients that has said, "Okay, look, let's cut from a full day to a half-day, that's our budget." You get there, you're on the shoot—
Drew Forsyth: Yep.
Andrew Hellmich: —and the client says, "Drew, look, you're already here, can we just get that one more shot?
Drew Forsyth: Yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: It's not a full half-day, we just need you for another hour." Like, how do you handle that on the day? Because I imagine if it's me, I'm trying to keep the mood, I'm trying to keep everyone happy because it's my shoot, you know, I'm looking after things. How do you handle that?
Drew Forsyth: I say definitely. I say yes, 100%. One, I'm not going to—sorry, I was about to swear. Can I swear on this?
Andrew Hellmich: It's okay.
Drew Forsyth: Right, I'm not about to fuck up this client relationship over one look, right? That's my first—my first instinct is like, I'm not—like, I'm not going to screw up this relationship because of one little thing. Obviously within that, [laughter] there is a huge range of what's acceptable, what's not, but this happens to me all the time. And like, more often than not, like I have clients all the time who say, "Oh, Sarah's actually going to be leaving us in the next kind of couple of weeks, would you mind doing her a quick headshot for LinkedIn?" [laughter]
Andrew Hellmich: Right.
Drew Forsyth: And I go, "Yeah." [laughter] "Fine. You know what? Fine. Yeah." If it's like—like okay, so that's the kind of softer end of it where I'll just say yes. If it's like, you know, let's say it was like a large clothing company and they're like, "Actually, we want to do one more look," I go, "Yes, absolutely. Obviously, there is going to be a knock-on effect with the deliverables. So like, if you want one more look, there's going to be more images, which means more post-production time, which means obviously—" I normally say something because we're in the moment and we're on set, I normally say something like, "There's discussion around budget that needs to happen." And then they go, "Mmm," and sometimes they go, "Oh, well, we won't bother then." But like, sometimes they're like, "Okay, well, great, well, we can have a chat with whatever, yeah, let's just shoot it now and then we'll decide after." Do you know what I mean? So—
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you'll shoot it in the moment and then won't touch those images, and talk about budget once you get back to the studio.
Drew Forsyth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, especially if it's like—if it's a bigger thing and like, you know, if it is just like one or two bits and pieces, it's like, "Oh, actually, do you mind if we just get a few quick snaps of X?" and I've already got it all set up and ready to go, and there's no one rushing for a train, and no one's—we don't have a hard out at 5:00 because the location's got to come and lock up, whatever, then you know, I'll try to say yes as much as I can. And even when I shouldn't say yes, I do say yes, and then you can have that discussion afterwards, because you can have that—I would much rather we have that discussion in the edit and then they go, "Oh, actually, we're not going to bother." That's fine. But it could mean, "Oh my god, we love these images, and these are the ones that we're going to use for the campaign, and this is going to be the billboard one, and this is going to be—" do you know what I mean? So I gamble. You know what I mean? [laughter] You know, it's like a game show. It's like, do you want to—do you want to keep it like, do you want to keep what you've got so far or do you want to gamble? And I'm like, I always gamble. [laughter]
Andrew Hellmich: I mean, you're there and set up anyway, it's really just your time at that—and expertise at that time.
Drew Forsyth: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think like, what am I going to do? Am I going to explain to the client, "Um, actually, you know, uh, it would be really inconvenient—" No. Just—just shoot it, it's fine. You just make it work, it's fine, okay? I would much rather keep people happy and keep getting hired and be personable, and then also, you know, they kind of have them kind of owe me a favor. [laughter] Do you know what I mean? Like, [laughter] I don't, you know, I think ultimately like, people get so caught up in like—in photography and the gear, in particular, but in lots of different things, but really it is just interpersonal skills. That's all this is. Do you know what I mean? Like, you could have a pin-sharp picture, but if it is of an uncomfortable person, then you cannot use that image, right? So like, yeah, soft skills, that's all it comes down to.
Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. You mentioned that you are known to be quite blunt, and you're happy to talk figures. Can you give us an idea of your turnover?
Drew Forsyth: Sure. So, let's see. So, the year before COVID, I was turning over about £70,000–£80,000. So I went from that £80,000 to £12,000 during COVID.
Andrew Hellmich: Wow.
Drew Forsyth: Photography not the kind of thing you can do remote, [laughter] really. Although I did try. [laughter] I mean, I think we all tried those kind of remote shoots where you shoot it through FaceTime and all that kind of thing. Or like, I did—you know what, I did an assignment—I did like a campaign for a client where they had the talent sit in their front living room and I shot it through the window, and I did loads of those whatever. But yeah, so I turned over about £12,000 that year. And then it took me two, three, or four years to get back to that £80,000, and now this last year is around—I'm on track for about £100,000 this year.
Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Fantastic. So is that a number that makes you happy and proud?
Drew Forsyth: I'll never be happy. I will never be— [laughter] No! [laughter] Spoken like a true Englishman. Well, actually, I'm Scottish, but that's fine. [laughter]
Andrew Hellmich: Oh, that's even worse. [laughter] Same nationality as my wife. [laughter]
Drew Forsyth: No kidding. [laughter] Yeah, no, um, it does make me exceptionally proud. You know what, like, yeah, photography, I mean, like I love my job, sure, but I also love the life that it has given me and is giving me. And really, it's not so much the money, right? So like, obviously I'm very fortunate I get to, you know, invoice all this money every year, and like, yeah, that's great and I do feel exceptionally proud, but I feel great when my friend says, "Hey, we're all going out to dinner on Friday, can you come?" and I just go, "Yeah." Do you know what I mean? Like, it's the lifestyle that I love. And yes, sometimes I'm shooting, sometimes I'm in a different country and whatever, but like, I love the—the kind of life that photography is giving me.
Andrew Hellmich: So when you use that dinner with your friends on a Friday example, do you mean you can say yes because you have the time available or because you have the money to be able to do the things that you want to do?
Drew Forsyth: The money, I think, mostly. But the time, yeah, the time, I've made the time. Because I think like, you know, a lot of people listening to this will maybe think, "Oh, this guy's working all hours of the day and night and, you know, working weekends or whatever." No, thanks. You know what, I can't—I can't get a doctor's appointment on a Saturday. Why am I working on a Saturday? I'm not saving lives. [laughter] Right? [laughter] Like, so I've—I sit down at my desk or I'm in the office or on set or whatever by 9:00, and then I'm out at 5:30, okay? And that's Monday to Friday, and, you know, I can get into how I'm able to do that if you like, but like, photography is—is my job and I love it, but like, it's just one part of my life. Right?
Andrew Hellmich: Well, that's interesting you say all that you just did because when I've interviewed other commercial photographers in the past, I get the feeling, particularly if they're a smaller operation, so a one-man show like you are, with your assistants and people you bring in—
Drew Forsyth: Yep.
Andrew Hellmich: —that you never really get to relax because once one job's done, you're already looking for the next one, and it doesn't come day-to-day-to-day-to-day like—it's not just booked in back-to-back. You're working, you're quoting, you're putting tenders in, you're making—sort of maintaining and building relationships, trying to get these jobs. Is that what it's like? Because the way you talked about it then, it's you're working Monday to Friday, 9:00 to 5:00.
Drew Forsyth: It is like that, I think. Like, it is—it is tough and, you know, you do think about it a lot, but like, the problem is, right, is that if you have this thing where you think about it every single day and every single night and it keeps you up at night and you're not sleeping and you're not eating and you're stressed out about it, one, you're not going to create great work because you're going to be thinking about it, and two, it's going to put you in an early grave, right? Like, and you know, people talk about efficiency and productivity and all that kind of thing. There are ways, there are easy ways [laughter] for you to like put some processes into your business so you can finish at 5:30 and not just be like, "Oh my god, I can't believe this, blah blah blah blah blah." Do you know what I mean? Like, there is—there is stuff that you can do. Like, people have this idea of like, this commercial photographer working all hours of the day and night and like, you know, you're drinking all this coffee and doing all this coke and trying to like keep everything together, [laughter] but like, actually, like, I don't know, my sister's a lawyer, right? And she finishes at 6:00, and at 6:05 she's got a glass of Prosecco in her hand. Like, why can't I do that? [laughter]
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I agree. [laughter]
Drew Forsyth: Like, why does my life have to be— I mean, obviously, don't get me wrong, right? Like, when I'm out and I'm shooting, especially shooting in—during the summer, like obviously you are going to be working late because the light is nice or like there are occasions. So like, this earlier this week actually, like, I had to stay up late because I had a deadline for the next morning—we shot something and it was going to the press deadline was the following morning 9:00 a.m. So yeah, I had to stay up till midnight editing images. But that is once in a blue moon. Do you know what I mean? The way that I like to operate now is that um is to yeah have that really clear delineation between my work life and my personal life, and, you know, not have like my work— Like, your work is gaseous, like it fills the every available space in the container that it is in, right? And if you let it, it will completely control your entire life. And like, actually, and this is why I stopped doing weddings, because I wasn't seeing my friends at the weekends, because I was missing life stuff. I can't go to my friend's daughter's christening because I'm shooting this thing at the weekend. And you think, "Am I going to look back in 20 years and go, thank goodness I made £250?" Or like, actually, if I improve my processes and I, you know, improve everything during the week and I, you know, set these boundaries, then actually I can still achieve everything I want to achieve without having to, you know, make that kind of a sacrifice.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, totally understand where you're coming from there. All right, yeah, having missed a lot of my kids' events because I was a wedding photographer, I did it for 20-something years.
Drew Forsyth: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: So if you look at your calendar for next week, if you bring that up, like are you shooting next week? Or are you having meetings? Are you editing? What are you doing next week?
Drew Forsyth: What am I doing next week? So, February/March is busy, is pretty busy, February/March. January's always very quiet, February/March starts to heat up, February/March is busy because everyone's trying to spend all their budget by April 6th, right? By year-end in the UK.
Andrew Hellmich: That's your tax year-end.
Drew Forsyth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's tax year-end in the UK. So everyone's trying to spend all their money, so right now is pretty busy. Next week, I'm shooting all day Tuesday, I'm shooting a half-day on Friday. I don't really like to shoot more than twice a week,
Andrew Hellmich: Right.
Drew Forsyth: —and I don't like to shoot on a Monday. Don't like shooting on a Monday, although I think I might be shooting, so I might be shooting backstage at the opera on Monday, but that's for my—that's for a personal project that I'm doing. Right, okay, so I might be doing that, but I'm not sure.
Andrew Hellmich: So if you're not shooting on a Monday, when you get up Monday morning, you go to the office or you go to your studio—is it your home office?
Drew Forsyth: Uh, yeah, I split my time—I do some co-working, so I have a place in the city center in Manchester City Center, but yeah, so I split my time between home office and there. You got to get out of the house.
Andrew Hellmich: So do you wake up Monday and then say, "Look, I've got to, you know, I want to be at work at 9:00 or 8:00, and I'm going to do a day's work," or you just think, "Well, it's Monday, I'm not shooting, I'm going to go to the gym, I'll go and catch up with some friends, have a coffee." Are you working?
Drew Forsyth: No, [laughter] what are you talking about? It's our job, you go to work, it's a Monday morning. [laughter] Okay, I go to work, yeah, yeah, yeah, 9:00 I sit down, I open my—I open my inbox and I go, "Right, what's on fire?"
Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. All right, okay, so you're treating it like a job.
Drew Forsyth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it is—it is a job in the eyes of the tax people, it is a job. [laughter] So even if it's not in the eyes of other people. But yeah, Monday morning, in fact, I do it every morning, sit down, if I'm not shooting. But even when I am shooting, I try and build it—build in the time. Yeah, Monday is like an admin day for me, so I don't like to shoot on a Monday because I feel a little bit discombobulated. So I shot on this Monday and then all day Tuesday I was like, "Ah, what's happening?" So, but yeah, so Monday, yeah, so Monday is like a good day to like prep your entire week. So I don't really like to shoot on a Monday because I feel like I missed that. Mmm. Yeah, got it. All that stuff. It takes me about an hour every morning.
Andrew Hellmich: When you talk about invoicing, what kind of terms do you have for payment with your clients? Is it 30 days, 7 days usually?
Drew Forsyth: I say 14.
Andrew Hellmich: 14 days.
Drew Forsyth: Gives them two weeks.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, do you have trouble getting money from some clients, and if so, what do you do to speed things up?
Andrew Hellmich: Premium members of PhotoBizX Exposed hear more of the best photography business strategies from every guest.
So good, unreal. Well, I'll link to this in the show notes. Look, I know we're running out of time, Drew, and I've got a bunch of like quick-fire questions I want to put to you, before that, where's the best place for listeners to see all the things we've been talking about, where should we go?
Drew Forsyth: Best thing to do is give me a follow on Instagram, it's @_drewforsyth, that's me, I'm sure it'll be linked somewhere. And then also my website, drewforsyth.com, that's the best place to look at all my work and yeah, kind of see what it's—see what it's all about, right?
Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. I'll link to all these and have examples in the show notes as well. But yeah, the Instagram is _drewforsyth, and Forsyth is F-O-R-S-Y-T-H, so I'll link to that in the show notes as well. Go and have a look, it's amazing, and give him a follow. Drew, just quickly before I let you go, I don't normally ask these kind of questions, but I'm sure the listener will be curious, what camera are you shooting with?
Drew Forsyth: I shoot with a Sony, I have two Sony A7R IIIs.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I said these are going to be quick, I thought you'd be shooting medium format, so does it matter? The Sony files are plenty big enough.
Drew Forsyth: Absolutely fine, it's 42 megapixels, 90% of my work's on the going to be looked at on a phone.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, wow, okay, that's interesting. Go-to lens?
Drew Forsyth: 35 Sony G Master, 35 1.4.
Andrew Hellmich: Cool. For the studio, are you hiring or do you own a studio?
Drew Forsyth: Hiring studio, 90% of my work's on location.
Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay, all right. So when you go to the studio, is it always the same studio?
Drew Forsyth: Yeah, I try to always go to the same place, so I'm not thinking.
Andrew Hellmich: Cool. Editing software?
Drew Forsyth: Shoot everything into Capture One, so shoot tethered as much as I can, obviously when you're in a helicopter, a bit more tricky, [laughter] but shoot everything tethered into Capture One and do the selects normally do the selects in Adobe Bridge, and people don't really tend to use that, I love it. So I use Bridge, so yeah, tether Capture into Capture One, Bridge for the selects, Lightroom for the grade and exposure and all that kind of thing, Photoshop, I'm kind of doing this in order, right? So like, yeah, Capture One, Bridge, Lightroom, Photoshop, then at that point, if I am working with a retoucher, the images might go to the retoucher at that point, or they might go to the retoucher at any point during that depending on like more complex retouching I don't like to do myself. Skin I'm not very good at, so I have someone that I work with who does all my skin retouching. But yeah, generally speaking, yeah, straight into Capture, Bridge, Lightroom, Photoshop, back into Lightroom, out the door.
Andrew Hellmich: And then how do you get the files to the client?
Drew Forsyth: Dropbox.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, super simple. Why don't you use Capture One for your selects, why use Bridge?
Drew Forsyth: It's muscle memory.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay.
Drew Forsyth: So like, I've been using Bridge for 10 or 12 years, so I just can do it really quickly. So it's not like a value judgment—like Capture One, it is amazing, and I actually—I actually switched to Capture—I used to shoot all my tethering straight into Lightroom, but I switched from Nikon to Sony during the pandemic, like during—in the early days of the pandemic because I thought this is a good opportunity—
Andrew Hellmich: When you had all that money.
Drew Forsyth: When I had all that money! [laughter] When I had all that money, I thought, "Yeah, how do do I get rid of all this money?" And um so I got rid of the money and my Sony A7R III came with a free version of Capture One, so I was like, okay, and then it's like industry standard tethering stuff, right? So I was like, okay, so I use it more and more now, obviously, it is incredible for post-production, I just—I haven't fully realized its potential, if that makes sense.
Andrew Hellmich: Mmm, awesome. Mate, two last questions for you, you've half-answered one of them, outsourcing, sounds like you have a retoucher, do you outsource anything else apart from to your assistant?
Drew Forsyth: Bit of production goes to my assistant, so a good example is New York stuff is like, find me a helicopter with no doors, and also I showed her a picture that I'd seen on Instagram and I was like, find out what rooftop that is, and book it, she was like, "I hate you." [laughter] So—so bit of production support around that kind of thing, fiddly stuff, accountant to do all my tax stuff, lawyer to kind of look over any legalese stuff that I'm not a fan of, yeah, bit of retouching here and there, not a ton, but like maybe 20% of my stuff goes to a retoucher.
Andrew Hellmich: Wow. You haven't mentioned this, I haven't seen anything on your website, do you help other photographers or do you plan to in the future, can they get in touch with you if they want to move into the commercial space or how does that work?
Drew Forsyth: Definitely. So over the past few years, I've noticed more and more people reach out, and I'm very accessible, right? If you DM me, I will reply, and my phone is always in my hand, [laughter] right? So over the last few years, I've noticed more and more the same questions keep coming up: how much should I charge, you know, I've been—this commission's happened and this, you know, I get all these questions. Later this year, I'm going to start opening up a kind of more structured mentoring situation slash kind of workshop, that kind of thing. I think if people want to know more, they should drop me an email, it's just drew@drewforsyth.com, but that's something I'm definitely going to be doing later in the year.
Andrew Hellmich: Awesome, unreal. Drew, you've been an incredible guest, your work is fantastic, I can't wait to share this with listeners, thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything you have.
Drew Forsyth: It's been an absolute pleasure, thank you so much for having me.
Andrew Hellmich: Drew Forsyth showing, I think, the same single-minded focus that he shares with those he photographs, thank you for listening, join me, Andrew Hellmich, for another photography interview next week, bye till then.
About Drew Forsyth
Drew Forsyth is an award-winning commercial and portrait photographer based in Manchester. He works primarily with arts and cultural organisations, advertising agencies, and commercial clients across the UK and internationally. Current and recent clients include English National Ballet, BBC Philharmonic Orchestra, the Hallé, Phoenix Dance Theatre, and the Science & Industry Museum Group.
Drew holds AOP Accreditation from the Association of Photographers and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. He has been a professional photographer for over fifteen years, moving from individual portrait sessions into large-scale commercial commissions for some of the UK's most prominent cultural institutions.
As discussed in this episode, Drew's commercial day rate sits between £1,300 and £1,800 depending on project scope, with separate pre-production, post-production, and usage licensing fees. He works with a regular assistant and makeup artist and delivers final files via Dropbox.
Drew is based in Manchester and takes commissions throughout the North West and UK. For enquiries, contact drew@drewforsyth.com or +44 7791 425 591. Portfolio at drewforsyth.com.
