Interview with ‘The Portrait System’ Podcast
I recently had the opportunity to sit down with photographer Nikki Closser for an episode of the Portrait System Podcast, and I absolutely loved our chat. We dove deep into what goes on behind the lens, the quiet intensity of high-achievers, and the technical obsession that drives my photography.
In this episode, Nikki and I trace my path from a JCPenney-style family portrait studio to photographing world leaders, Nobel laureates, and major corporate campaigns — and I break down exactly how I price that work today. We dig into setting boundaries on set (and how to say yes to more without losing your mind), why those early "conveyor belt" studio years became my real technical training, and why I believe my biggest competition isn't other photographers — it's being forgotten.
I also walk through how I actually quote corporate jobs (day rates, itemized breakdowns, and the cautionary tale of a client who blamed me for "cheap-looking" dresses), how personal passion projects like my "Breaking Ground" series and a helicopter shoot over Manhattan became my best marketing, and the "Helsinki Bus Station Theory" — my framework for why so many photographers give up on their style right before it becomes distinctive.
Topics covered:
Setting boundaries with clients without losing bookings
Why "conveyor belt" studio work builds indispensable technical skills
My accidental path from individual sessions to corporate/organizational clients
Pricing corporate shoots: day rates, itemized quotes, and scope questions
Why past-client relationships and personal introductions beat cold outreach
Marketing through consistent presence, not constant hard-selling
Passion projects as a client-acquisition strategy
The Helsinki Bus Station Theory: staying the course creatively
You can listen below, or scroll down for the full transcript!
Full Transcript
[00:00] Nikki Closser: Most photographers think that getting bigger clients means having the perfect portfolio and the perfect marketing plan. But I'm going to be honest, that's not usually what gets you hired. I'm Nikki Closser and today on the Portrait System Podcast, I'm talking with Drew Forsyth, and he talks about what gets you hired again and again. We cover building relationships, communicating your pricing with confidence, and why your passion projects can sometimes open bigger doors than paid work ever could. Plus, Drew talks about a theory, and it's a simple idea that might completely change the way you think about your photography career. All right, let's get into it. Here is Drew Forsyth. Hi Drew, welcome to the Portrait System.
[00:39] Drew Forsyth: Hello, how are you doing?
[00:41] Nikki Closser: Good to see you.
[00:42] Drew Forsyth: It's good to see you too.
[00:43] Nikki Closser: This is going to be fun, I think. So, despite what everyone said, I learned just from our little pre-chat during the tech setup that you're actually a really fun guy. I already know that.
[00:57] Drew Forsyth: Thank you very much. I'm not really sure what to say to that, other than thank you. I'm trying my best.
[01:05] Nikki Closser: Well, there you go.
[01:06] Drew Forsyth: I have a pathological need for people to like me, which helps in my career.
[01:11] Nikki Closser: Oh God, me too. I'm such a people pleaser. Are you a people pleaser? It's crazy.
[01:17] Drew Forsyth: I'm willing to compromise basically everything I believe in to make other people happy, which I would not always recommend.
[01:25] Nikki Closser: I know, although I will say the older that I get—like I'll be 50 next year—I'm starting to feel less people-pleasy, which is good.
[01:39] Drew Forsyth: I think in my personal life, I'm way less people-pleasing, but when I'm at work, I try to. You know, the answer is yes, now what's the question? Do you know what I mean? That's my general attitude for things.
[01:52] Nikki Closser: It's interesting because... Oh man, like how does that... Okay, we're jumping way ahead here, and I promise we will get into the meat and potatoes of business, but let's talk about this, because it's a big deal. Like setting boundaries around what you will and won't do. So if you feel like you don't have a lot of those boundaries, do you think it's benefited you in your business?
[02:13] Drew Forsyth: I think when I was starting out, it definitely benefited, and now I have to harness that feeling. I'm very enthusiastic when I'm on set and when I'm shooting, because if you speak to my assistants, I set the weather. Do you know what I mean? If I'm in a good mood, everyone's in a good mood, and if I'm in a bad mood, everyone's in a bad mood. So when I'm trying to please everyone and keep everyone happy, I have this kind of energy that I try to beam out on set. But when it bumps into reality, which is, "Okay, we would like to add another look please, in this location that you've never seen before." I've done this long enough now and I've screwed up enough times that I know that I need to go, "Oh, hang on. True." And then it comes back and I say, "Yes, absolutely! I would love to do another look with you. Which look would you like to cut?" If there is a problem, because objectively that is a problem, I always ask the client or whoever it is that's come to me to solve my problems for me.
[03:26] Nikki Closser: I like that. I don't think our clients sometimes understand how much work one more look is for us. To them, it's just, "Oh, let's do a couple more." But to us, it's like there are more photos to cull.
[03:42] Drew Forsyth: Exactly, and if you're good, you make it look really easy as well, so you just go, "Oh well, it's fine. We'll just add another thing in."
[03:51] Nikki Closser: Right. But what you do now is a little bit different than traditional portraits, and we'll get into that. But for me, someone did say in my Facebook group, it said something like, "For the love of all things holy, will you let your guests talk more and stop making it all about you?" And they posted it anonymously. And I did take that feedback, and I said, "Listen, you don't need to post this anonymously, it's actually something I'm insecure about that I do talk too much about myself. So that's good feedback for me." Anyway, I just thought of that again, making it all about me. But what I was going to say before I went off on that little tangent is, for personal branding, when I tell them they get four looks, and I always tell them to bring their whole closet if they want, and I add in more looks because I'm under-promising, over-delivering. With what I do with personal branding, variety allows me to sell more photos. But for you, because you do a lot of commercial work right now, that wouldn't necessarily make more money for you to do one more look. It just gives you more work, is that correct?
[05:20] Drew Forsyth: I would say that's 60% true, but what it will mean is, if we shoot another look, then there will be more deliverables. I'm not just charging one set fee for the whole thing; I'm breaking it down into everything. So if they want, I don't know, 20 images instead of 16, those extra four images are going to take a day or two days. That takes more time, so I can charge for that. Plus, it might be the best shot ever.
[05:54] Nikki Closser: I think sometimes when you're done with a shoot, you're just done. And that's when it would be a good time to say no.
[06:05] Drew Forsyth: Definitely, I had that pretty recently on a shoot. I know the client really well, and I did have to hold her hand and just say, "Do you really want to put everyone through this?" And she said, "I don't." And I was like, "Fantastic, let's all go right then, we're done."
[06:27] Nikki Closser: Okay, let's back up a little bit. You have currently done big commercial shoots, like the CBC, you said you photographed some world leaders, some big corporate campaigns. But before you did all of this, you were just a traditional portrait photographer, right? Can you take us back to that?
[06:54] Drew Forsyth: When I first started out, yeah, I was a traditional portrait photographer. I was just doing individual sessions, much more working with individuals rather than these massive organizations. I was doing my friends, and photographing friends of friends, and then suddenly you're getting Facebook page messages, saying, "Hey, you photographed my friend. How much do you charge?" And I was like, "I don't know how much you got?" So I was doing that for maybe three or four years. Over that time I met some amazing people, and that's how I discovered my love of photographing ballet. I photographed a ballerina and she casually mentioned that, and I was like, "Oh my God, well we should do some pictures in your ballet stuff." What started to happen was that I really enjoyed the people that I was photographing semi-regularly, and then I realized it unlocked this thing where if I know the people a little more, we can do different stuff each time and you build that relationship. That naturally lent itself to shooting in organizations, rather than having the same conversation over and over again with different people. Basically, what I do now is individual portrait sessions, but it is for massive organizations.
[08:31] Nikki Closser: So, you started with friends, family, friends of friends, charging probably next to nothing. At what point did you realize this isn't a sustainable income, or did you have another job?
[08:48] Drew Forsyth: This was happening when I was a student. I was studying English literature and drama. So it was just my friends, and all my friends were actors and performing arts people. So I didn't have a job that I had to be doing at the same time to earn money, because I was a student. Then when I graduated, I got a job in a makeover studio, a family portrait studio. They set up just the same backdrop and everyone's posed as a family.
[09:37] Nikki Closser: Yeah, we call them JC Penney portraits. No offense to JC Penney. Where you put your hands together and your elbows out, leaning on your hands, everyone's matched in their clothing. And it's a family and they're all wearing blue jeans and a white t-shirt, all on white, and they're barefoot.
[10:14] Drew Forsyth: Oh my god, yeah.
[10:16] Nikki Closser: So you worked in one of those studios for a while?
[10:18] Drew Forsyth: I was in one of those for about two and a half, three years. That acted as my technical training. Up until that point, I'd never been in a studio. The skills that I learned from that, I can do a decent portrait in about 15, 20 seconds. From someone coming in for the handshake through to them saying goodbye. And it's because I'd be photographing couples, and it was always the girlfriend or the fiance's idea. So I did three years of photographing people who just did not want to be there. Those skills that you learn from that, I use those skills every single day.
[11:31] Nikki Closser: I can imagine. When a company has slated appointments for 15-20 minutes, the amount of practice you get, learning the poses, learning the lighting, making such a difference.
[11:51] Drew Forsyth: It was like the Beatles in Hamburg. Gigs for 12 hours a day. You're doing these shifts, it's not just families, it's surprise engagements, babies, modeling sessions, lingerie. You do everything, it's a conveyor belt, so you are constantly having to figure out what's next. You learn so fast. It was a baptism by fire, but those skills were indispensable.
[12:35] Nikki Closser: If you are fumbling through your shoots, it just means you need more practice. Get your neighbor in, get your coworker in, get your friend's daughter in. Do anything you can so that you can move forward with the style you want efficiently and quickly.
[13:13] Drew Forsyth: The camera that I use now is a Sony a7R III. It's an older camera, but I know that thing inside out; it's like an extension of me. Like when musicians are on stage, they aren't thinking about what chord they're going to play. You aren't looking at the thing, you're connecting to the person. I have my portrait taken once a year to refresh my headshot. A big part of why I do that is to remember how uncomfortable it feels. Remember that this is what you're asking people to do.
[14:13] Nikki Closser: That's a good point, to experience it yourself really does help you understand. I had hired someone to take a family shoot. It was taking so long and everyone just wanted to wrap it up. A lot of the reason I think that I am as efficient and quick is I want them to leave feeling like they want more.
[14:48] Drew Forsyth: Whenever I'm with famous people, I always tell them it's going to be half an hour, and then we're done after 20 minutes, and then they get 10 minutes back. They're so busy, they leave happy because we got it in six minutes. I love to give that gift back to people.
[15:24] Nikki Closser: There's a lot between charging next to nothing to doing what you do now. It sounds like you're a networker, making these connections. Take us through that transition.
[16:21] Drew Forsyth: The transition started as a bit of an accident. I ended up photographing musicians, and if you photograph musicians, you photograph bands. If you're photographing ballerinas, the people who run the ballet company ask you to photograph the company. It started out with individual people, but they all have jobs. I wasn't getting hired because my work was so good, I was getting hired because I was the most recent memory for these people. Someone would say, "Drew took my photos last week, he was really good." My clients at that time just saw a photographer as a photographer. Then I realized that I just enjoyed the growing of that relationship. A lot of my friends now are former or current clients. You get on with people and you want to do a good job. The first assignment with a certain client might go okay, but the second time goes way better because you know the room, you know the power outlets, you know the backdrop won't fit in the elevator. Suddenly, all this stuff opens up, and that's what I really enjoyed.
[18:34] Nikki Closser: Oftentimes people think just because you're a photographer you do every single genre. If you haven't pigeonholed yourself yet, utilize that. It can open some doors. But regarding the elevator, I had a corporate job I'm on year six of doing. The first year I worked myself to the bone. This was for 300 people across two dental schools, and I was delivering four to five images for each one even though I was hired for one. I had to walk up six flights of stairs with a polyboard. But now on year six, they get their one image that they choose. Now I use seamless paper because it fits in the elevator. My whole point is, with experience, it makes life easier when you can get hired by the same people. Relationship building is so important.
[20:39] Drew Forsyth: 100% so important. Marketing to your past clients is the easiest. Some clients will just text me a time. I've spent the last week seeing what clients I haven't shot for in a while are up to. My biggest competition is not other photographers, it's amnesia. People forget you exist. Little light touch check-ins. Seven or eight times out of 10 they'll say no, but sometimes they'll ask if you're free tomorrow.
[21:55] Nikki Closser: It's worth reaching out. They know how you work, they have an idea of the fee.
[22:12] Drew Forsyth: Cold reaching out is tough. You've got to have thick skin. I have found the most rewarding relationships come from personal introductions. The way I get those is I say to my clients, "Do you know anyone?" If I shoot for one museum, I can ask, "Do you know anyone that works at this other museum?" And they do. You get that trusted name, and it makes things easier. The people hiring you aren't always photographically literate; they want to know if they can spend eight hours on set with you. That reassurance comes from trust.
[24:11] Nikki Closser: I like this. Think of the people in your life. If you want to photograph sports cars, who do you know that works at a dealership? I would rather refer someone who is just good, as opposed to great, if I know they are going to take care of them and provide a good service.
[24:59] Drew Forsyth: The regular makeup artist I work with, Rebecca, I know that when the subject gets out of the chair they feel so good. She's friendly, she arrives early. I'm making hiring decisions based on that criteria. You assume they're good, so all the soft skills are crucial. If someone is an expert but rude, I'm not hiring them again.
[26:44] Nikki Closser: If someone asks, "How much do you cost?" How do you charge? Do you ask their budget or have a day rate?
[27:21] Drew Forsyth: The first thing I do is scope out what it is. Is it one day? Five days? In a foreign country? Do I need a makeup artist? Then I might just ask off the record what we are working with here on a phone call. Then it comes down to quoting. I'll say my day rate is between this and this. There's no such thing as a one-day shoot because you have prep, post-production, the team, and usage. For smaller assignments it's around $1,800 to $2,000. For bigger things, there is no upper limit. I break it down and I'll usually do two or three quotes. A bare minimum quote, and then the all-singing, all-dancing version. They can pick and choose different bits. I itemize absolutely everything so they see where their money's going. That saved me when a client asked why dresses looked cheap. I told them we only allocated £400 for 10 dresses. If they make the decisions on budget, then if they don't like the makeup because they didn't pay for an artist, it's not my fault.
[32:00] Nikki Closser: I love the idea of breaking down the cost. You're creating packages for them. By breaking it down by cost, they might not be shell shocked, and it might give some wiggle room to increase the budget. I was trying to find a way to translate that to traditional portraits. My packages start at $995, and seniors start at $1495. I wish I could break it down to show them why it costs that much money based on hours spent.
[34:25] Drew Forsyth: The kind of people asking you those questions are never going to understand the answer. They're really just asking, "Can I have it for less?" With wedding photographers, they have a clear list of what you get and don't get. Maybe it's a line item for pre-production, and if they ask to cut it, you explain what they get for it.
[37:06] Nikki Closser: What other marketing do you do?
[37:11] Drew Forsyth: Being a constant presence. Instagram every day, LinkedIn every day. Even if it's just messaging people or liking people's posts. I post on my Insta story every day so I'm at the top of their phone. It's little light touches, not just posts about campaigns. A big part of my brand is who I am as a person, and Instagram is a perfect way to show that.
[38:15] Nikki Closser: Liking and commenting helps keep you top of mind by supporting your clients. It's continuing to build relationships without networking events. I wanted to share a little bit of your work. You have a vast variety. There's a pregnant ballerina outdoors, a man playing an oboe with beautiful light, a man in a museum.
[40:24] Drew Forsyth: I really think of myself as a portrait photographer because I like people. I'm not bothered about one specific niche. If someone has an interesting job, let's shoot it. I'm looking for a "wow" moment.
[41:26] Nikki Closser: When you're lighting, do you have a signature setup?
[41:33] Drew Forsyth: I have a safety setup, which is a 4-foot octa with a Profoto wireless head at 90 degrees to the camera. It's a good clean place to start and everyone looks good in that light. It's reassuring for people. I shoot tethered so they see it right away. Everything's battery powered, which is crucial. Like with the pregnant ballerina in the Scottish Highlands, a mile from the road, you figure it out and use battery power.
[43:08] Nikki Closser: There is a portrait on your website of a woman standing in front of a car with the hood open, and another of her under the car with oil on her face. It's a powerful portrait.
[43:51] Drew Forsyth: This is a series I did for personal work called "Breaking Ground." It was about women who work in male-dominated industries. I was going to Austin and found an article about the only female rancher in Texas. I photographed her, then met a cowboy boot maker and photographed her. I came back to the UK and friends suggested a marble sculptor.
[46:54] Nikki Closser: This was just a passion project?
[46:56] Drew Forsyth: Yes, but personal work is how I get hired. People are interested in stuff that ignites you inside. I got so much work from that project.
[47:43] Nikki Closser: Doing a passion project can truly lead you to more work. You've also got a shoot with a model in a helicopter over Manhattan.
[48:43] Drew Forsyth: A couple of years ago, I went through an absolute catastrophic breakup. I went to New York and decided to photograph a Russian supermodel in a helicopter over Manhattan. That shoot has got me so much work. I rented the helicopter, reached out to modeling agencies, and the shots look great.
[52:12] Nikki Closser: What lens were you using in the helicopter?
[52:32] Drew Forsyth: I think I had a 12 to 24 Sony, or 16 to 24. I was really wide. We were really close to the city.
[54:57] Nikki Closser: Doing something passionate and creative can really help us through life sometimes.
[55:10] Drew Forsyth: Absolutely, and you haven't got someone over your shoulder telling you what to do. The worst jobs are when they don't satisfy the creative aspect. I grow a wildflower field for my high school senior shoots. It gets me out of the studio and is my creative outlet.
[58:59] Nikki Closser: What is something you can't live without when you're doing a photoshoot?
[59:33] Drew Forsyth: It's a feeling when someone says, "We don't normally allow people back here," or going through a door marked private. I like feeling special. A more realistic one is music on set. It relaxes the atmosphere and if there's a problem with equipment, there isn't silence.
[01:02:13] Nikki Closser: How do you spend your time when you're not working?
[01:02:22] Drew Forsyth: My New Year's resolution was to walk out the door more. I try different things like candle making, flower arranging, and life drawing. And I love live music. I try to consume as much stuff that's not photography as I can.
[01:04:26] Nikki Closser: What is a photography-specific product that you would recommend?
[01:04:31] Drew Forsyth: The cart. I bought a cart to load all my gear onto, and 10 trips to the car becomes one trip. It's a Rock n Roller cart, stealth edition.
[01:06:50] Nikki Closser: What would you tell people who are just starting out?
[01:07:05] Drew Forsyth: Three things. Number one, you're not shooting enough. You need to shoot 100,000 photos to make a full-time living. Second, hybrid shooting. Learn video as well as stills. Third, shoot everything. You won't know what you like until you try it. And one more thing: the Helsinki bus station theory. When you try different types of photography and get discouraged by others' work, don't go back to the start. Stay on the bus. Those routes get longer and you end up in unique places that combine all your skills. Stay on the bus.
[01:12:56] Nikki Closser: That's a really good analogy. Drew Forsyth, thank you so much for being on the Portrait System.
[01:13:17] Drew Forsyth: Thank you so much for having me.
About Drew Forsyth
Drew Forsyth is a Manchester-based commercial and portrait photographer specialising in arts, culture, and performance. He works with leading organisations including English National Ballet, the Hallé Orchestra, BBC Philharmonic, Phoenix Dance Theatre, and the Science & Industry Museum, as well as advertising and creative agencies across the UK and internationally.
Drew is accredited by the Association of Photographers (AOP) and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts (RSA). He has photographed principal dancers from the Royal Ballet, English National Ballet, and Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, and his work has been published by the BBC, The Guardian, The Times, and Rolling Stone.
His long-term personal project, Principal, documents principal dancers from dance companies around the world. His series Power and Principal, shot with ballerina Bethany Kingsley-Garner, captures the athletic strength and physical discipline of professional ballet. He also shoots on analogue film using a Hasselblad XPan II panoramic camera.
Drew is available for editorial portrait commissions, campaign photography, and performing arts assignments throughout Manchester, the North West, and the UK. He can be contacted at drew@drewforsyth.com or +44 7791 425 591.
